Import midi pattern

[Cyberluke]

Can NDLR import midi pattern or can you let it record incoming midi notes into a pattern? Lets say you have a bunch of midi loops and you want them get noodled together.

[Cyberluke]

...and I will need rhythm length 32, pattern length 10 and daisy chain 4 patterns using mod matrix, perhaps also two rhythm patterns for variability as well. If simple melody played fast, you need to have alterations in motif. In Ableton it looks simple, but NDLR seems to support only short repetitive patterns. Difficult to create some classic catchy dance motifs. Any tips?

[Jesse Johannesen]

Yes and no, there isn't a midi import feature, but if you enter the Pattern Editor, incoming notes will over write existing values in the pattern. I think they advance the cursor as well, but I may need to brush up a little on this behavior myself. This may or may not work out the way you are hoping.

Another way that you can mingle MIDI patterns with external patterns is via the MIDI PORT MAPPING function. This would allow you to take incoming MIDI notes and pass them downstream along with the Note output of the NDLR, on any NON-CONTROL channel providing that you stick to the correct MIDI PORTs as listed on the chart on page 33 of the manual. These could both be on the same MIDI channel but have different lengths so you could play them off each other. This strategy also works well for Motifs, try setting them both to the same channel and changing the pattern or rhythm length up, lots of fun to be had there.
I hope this helps.
Jesse

[Cyberluke]

Hi, yes I noticed I can use keyboard input on pattern editor and it does advance the next step. That is great. My NDLR is synced to Ableton and Push 2 controller sends the midi key. Tempo is 135 BPM. It is possible to just let Ableton play midi clip and output data to NDLR. That is great. The only thing is that NDLR is too slow and even with 135 BPM (medium tempo) it does miss some information. My midi clip has one note, but NDLR did generate 3 notes in the pattern editor. When I stop the clip and input manually through keyboard or NDLR itself, it is okay.

But what concerns me more is how to recreate this very simple pattern for motif. I'm interested only in motifs here, not pads.

I have uploaded screenshots here: https://1drv.ms/u/s!Aq5X0D4OWWAThLE4y5I_...w?e=BBrTf7

You can notice on iPad app I have been able to do it easily in 5 minutes. Notice there is a caveat, everything is A minor, but you have the option to change bass root note inside A minor. Which creates this specific arp sequence I found in some sample pack.

The chords are: A minor (i A), VII G, VI F

So we have first caveat in NDLR: changing bass root note.

Next caveat: the arp pattern contains 21 notes. It took me 1h to recreate the rhythm pattern and pattern itself inside NDLR, but it's not done yet. Because the pattern editor can contain only 16 notes, I have been able to reproduce only part of this loop. NDLR pattern can contain only 10 notes to make it loopable (play only half of the loop in sync). If pattern would allow 32 steps, it would be normal. But then rhythm would need to have 64 steps in order to represent empty notes successfully.

So right now I can only try to make two patterns and one pattern will have 16 notes, second pattern will have the missing 5 notes. Then I need to use matrix modulation to trigger pattern change using LFO. But I smell it will not loop correctly the second pattern with 5 notes.

All in all, it takes like 2-3 hours to recreate this simple pattern on NDLR and perhaps I will not even be able to do it. While on iOS it takes 5 minutes in ChordFlow app.

Really disappointed with NDLR. I expected it will be for dance music. But for this groove and ghost notes, 16 notes in pattern editor is a show stopper. Even if I will be able to do it, there is still the problem with not being possible to change bass root note or motif root note and it is very time consuming with matrix modulation just to fix pattern length. It also takes up more memory because you need to use two patterns effectively cutting pattern memory to half.

I'm software developer, I hope this project will not end abandoned. It would be great if after some years, they opensourced the firmware.

Right now my solution will probably be: Try to find some arp plugin on iOS or PC (VST) which allows midi input of a root note. Then NDLR will output a chord change in midi to external arp plugin which would contain pattern with 32 steps. But I need to look into it if NDLR can send some information when pressing I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII buttons. Probably will need some midi remapping plugin in the middle to send the correct midi note information for external arp plugin.

And this all started with a simple motif in mind :-)

PS: Notice on motif screenshot the C4 note stays the same even when changing chord. That is because it stays in A minor chord all the time, you just change bass root note inside A minor scale.

[Jesse Johannesen]

Yeah, I think what we're running into here is that the NDLR isn't really designed to be a "recreate a specific track" kind of device, but rather more geared toward exploration and experimentation (Noodling). This certainly isn't to say that you can't do such and such with it, only that it has some strengths and weaknesses, and where it shines is in those areas. If you only want to recreate a specific motif that is longer than the pattern lengths available, you may be right to reach for a different solution.

As for abandoning the device, that isn't something to worry about, we've been doing constant updates and bug fixes, and I don't see that changing any time soon.

Anyway, I'd love to hear the track once you get it pinned down.

Best of luck,
Jesse

[Cyberluke]

1) Call & Response melody / motif. Can you do it? That is very basic stuff, sir.

2) Did you check my screenshots? The pluck pattern is very basic. It does not have 16 notes, but 21 notes. If you noodling 1/8 grid then it is enough. But most of the songs have 1/16 grid and then it is not enough. You cannot make even basic pattern for 1/16 grid.

3) Is there a workaround? Mod matrix with pattern switching for call & response melody. Possible: Yes or No? You did not answer.

4) Changing bass root note is possible: Yes or No?

What solution do you offer?

My solution so far:
A) Use drone to trigger external arp as drone can change bass root note (this is workaround that I was expecting you can tell me)
B) Use external arp and trigger both arp and NDLR using external midi keys

I had hardware startup and did run makerspace. I know Teensy Arduino is good for realtime hardware, but even so it is quite limited in memory and not so fast with UI and midi input (pattern editor did not record incoming midi input from 135 BPM 1/16 grid midi notes). I hope you did provide some additional SRAM (some form of static memory) on Teensy, so it have enough memory to save user data. It is also good for the future upgrades.

[Jesse Johannesen]

1) Call & Response melody / motif. Can you do it? That is very basic stuff, sir.

2) Did you check my screenshots? The pluck pattern is very basic. It does not have 16 notes, but 21 notes. If you noodling 1/8 grid then it is enough. But most of the songs have 1/16 grid and then it is not enough. You cannot make even basic pattern for 1/16 grid.

3) Is there a workaround? Mod matrix with pattern switching for call & response melody. Possible: Yes or No? You did not answer.

4) Changing bass root note is possible: Yes or No?

What solution do you offer?

My solution so far:
A) Use drone to trigger external arp as drone can change bass root note (this is workaround that I was expecting you can tell me)
B) Use external arp and trigger both arp and NDLR using external midi keys

I had hardware startup and did run makerspace. I know Teensy Arduino is good for realtime hardware, but even so it is quite limited in memory and not so fast with UI and midi input (pattern editor did not record incoming midi input from 135 BPM 1/16 grid midi notes). I hope you did provide some additional SRAM (some form of static memory) on Teensy, so it have enough memory to save user data. It is also good for the future upgrades.

1. Yes call and response is totally doable and you are on the right track with Q3 in suggesting the Mod Matrix. I would suggest using a Motif Pattern as an LFO shape (in LFO config) and editing that pattern to be values of 0 or 1 and sending that to (either or both) Motif Patterns as a destination. then using adjacent patterns you should be able to set them to flip between patterns at whatever interval you like following a 16 step pattern.

2. I did see that you included several visual representations of the pattern. On closer inspection it may also be possible to utilize the Scale Mode on the Patterns to create your Motif, using 3 patterns set to Scale (in the pattern editor rotate the lower left encoder all the way CCW. This will bring up a menu that will have the options Chromatic, Scale, or Chord. Choose Scale) then you can select the notes in order that you want in chord 1, then save the pattern and move to another pattern and do the same for chord 2, and 3 and save to adjacent pattern slots. Then using the MOD matrix you could select which Motif Pattern is playing using the above Mod Matrix suggestion but modify the pattern to have values 0, 1, and 2.

3. See above

4. Yes Drone part can be set to play just the current Root note, or follow the Chord Degree selected (any of the drone trigger patterns that have a triangular play indicator stay on the root, the ones with 5 dots follow the Chord Degree). Additionally the Drone Notes selection will chose if it plays just root, root and 5th, or root 5th and octave). If you set the motifs you are using to Scale, they will not transpose with Chord degree selection (but pad will), so you could get the bass note to transpose independently of the Motifs.

I don't know whether or not additional SRAM was added, but I do know that we wish there was more.  As to the pattern editor, I believe the ability to input notes from MIDI was added as an update and was intended to be used with a midi keyboard. I suggested it in the hopes that the process might be abused to accomplish your goal. It doesn't surprise me that it didn't quite get it right, but it was worth a try.

I hope that helps a little more, and if you want to give these ideas a shot and get back to me, I'd be happy to provide further assistance as necessary.
Jesse

[Cyberluke]

Thank you very very much! Now I can try to find the best creative process. I love NDLR, I'm just focused right now more on the motifs rather than pads.

[Cyberluke]

I found one music theory thing, where your motif pattern will generate something else than I expect.

The motif pattern for CHORD mode tells what number of note to play in that chord from 1 to 8.

But if the chord have something like inversion, it will not work properly.

Lets say pads play this chord sequence in A minor scale:
1) i A triad and 6 notes are selected: C3, E3, A3, C4, E4, A4
2) VI F triad: C3, F3, A3, C4, F4, A4

Here you will see the issue. The original motif from screenshot plays note A3 and then F3. But position of A3 in the first chord is 3, while position of F3 in the first chord is 2.

Therefore in your motif pattern if I input 3 it will play A3 in the first chord degree, but when I switch to VI F, it will not play F3 because it is on 2nd position.

Did I explain it well?

The whole issue is about the root note is changing. Because if I use external motif arpeggiator and let NDLR send Drone root note, it works properly. Drone root note will properly change from A3 to F3, so I can address that as first note from the chord in arpeggiator and then use something like play note +3 and +5 from A minor scale and it works perfectly.

But your motif pattern is not capable of this. There should be some option to input relative notes in the pattern based on Drone root note. I think it is some other option. None of CHORD or SCALE options in Motif pattern editor will do this, right?

The reason I am so specific about this is that I need to make NDLR play specific chord and motif to represent dance melodies from the 90's with specific feel. After I can do that, I can play and noodle around. But right now I get different midi data no matter what I do. However I have been able to workaround this using Drone root note and external sequencer.

Yes I have now verified there is something missing in your NDLR. Because if I change motif pattern to SCALE-fixed. It will always play the same notes even on VI F chord degree. Therefore there should be mode SCALE-root, which would do what Drone root note is doing. It would be based on the scale, but first note will count from the current root note!

This is the missing piece of puzzle that will allow to use NDLR with contemporary dance music (90's and 2000's) when the position of the notes is changed and you need to react based on the root note, not based on the chord.

So you even cannot use motif to create a bass. Because bass need to always react to root note. Bass almost always plays the root note. So only drone can be used to generate bass. Motif cannot be used even while a lot of videos says motif 1 can be bass and motif 2 can be melody. Right now it can't :-)

[Jesse Johannesen]

You did a great job of explaining that, but it is still a little confusing due to the complexity of the subject, so forgive me if I get it wrong. I think when it is in chord mode, the Motif pattern doesn't necessarily center around the Root note, you can choose the inversion by moving the Position of the Motif in essence picking which note is on the bottom of the triad/chord. Is that what you are experiencing here? Can you test that out a little and let me know if that gives you the expected result?
Jesse