04-29-2021, 05:55 PM
(This post was last modified: 04-29-2021, 06:39 PM by GreatSphynx.)
Hey there, this is my first post here.
I got my NDLR a couple months ago but because of moving my office studio setup I didn't really get much time to experiment with the NDLR until the past week or so.
My setup consists of a bunch of various hardware, rack mounted synths and standalone keyboards, and I use VCV Rack in place of a traditional DAW. Hopefully there might be some people here with VCV experience. I like the modular workflow but am a little hesitant to actually jump into physical modular just because of cost (and addiction potential). I convert CV to Midi and send info out to all my gear using an iConnectivity midi hub, that has always worked without issue. I have used the NDLR a bit just hooked directly to my hardware and also no issues there.
My issues began to start when I wanted to route NDLR through VCV. Although I have some hardware I still use plenty of software sound sources, either VCV modules or VST instruments in VCV using the Host module. I'll start out just by saying that I know that some of these issues might be purely with how the VCV midi to CV modules work, but I'm hoping maybe some people have some solutions or tips.
The first issue I encountered was with Gate information, although I was able to get this somewhat workable. I did my research and I totally understand that NDLR doesn't actually send a "gate" just note on / note off midi messages. In VCV I've been able to somewhat successfully take either the "Gate" or "Retrig" outputs of the "Midi-CV" module in VCV rack and convert those pulses into functional gates that I can then use with my envelope generators. The problem is this tends to be very inconsistent and either I get missed notes or over time the "Gate" output on the Midi-CV module just appears to get stuck open. This happens both with Midi output into my iConnectivity hub, as well as Midi over USB. As far as I can tell even with other Midi-CV modules made by 3rd parties there isn't an output I can grab that is just looking at the Note On/Off signal, note on/off signals all seem to get parsed into v/oct + gate + velocity in VCV midi modules. For reference when testing this setup using Midi over USB I set each of the 4 parts to their own USB midi bus, each with their own separate channel. When using standard 5-pin midi I split 2 channels on A and 2 channels on B, and this leads into the next issue.
The 2nd issue is when using 5-pin din in this set up I get some really weird unwanted signals being sent all over the place. I have triple checked the routing both in the NDLR settings, and on my MIDI interface. Once I start playing more than 2 parts, it seems like garbage data starts getting randomly sent to every Midi channel. For example I can run Motif 1 and 2, but as soon as I start Drone random garbage pitch data starts getting output to Motif 1 and 2. This issue is circumvented by using USB for everything, which so far I can't see any downsides to. I originally switched over to using DIN because I was hoping that maybe I could get more usable gate signals that didn't drop notes, but I had more problems using DIN than just sticking to USB only. After a certain amount of time of getting this garbage message accumulation note data would just stop being sent to the Midi-CV modules no matter how many times I panic'd them out. The only way to fix it was to power off and on the NDLR, and in some cases I had to delete and re-add the Midi-CV modules in VCV rack (this leads me to believe this particular problem is a VCV issue, not the NDLR)
My final issue has to do with sending Midi CC values to the NDLR. In VCV I have a CV-CC module set up so that I can send CC's to CC 73 and 74 so that using VCV sequencers I can change the Key and Scale remotely to create an actual song structure. I also send pitch information (in the form of standard note on / off) to the NDLR to be able to sequence the Chord Degree / Type. The issue is that in VCV when I send the signal all these changes are not properly synchronized, so for example on the first beat of bar 16 of a song, I'd send values to change to E Minor Degree I. What happens a lot of the time is it will change the Key on the downbeat, but the Mode change happens a fraction of a second later (or sometimes not at all) which is very very noticeable in a musical sense. I know Midi (even over USB) has its limitations, but I feel like only sending 2 CC changes on their own dedicated control channel should be happening in a perceptibly simultaneous time. Instead I get a weird staggering effect that is easy to hear and sounds really bad.
I really want to use my NDLR with VCV to help me experiment and create more musical pieces without having to do it all with modules, but the Gate issues and the CC change issues make it almost unusable at times. Like I said I know some of this is pretty dependent on how VCV works (sending gate vs. note on/off), but I'm confused about the CC change issue. I also don't know if this is potentially an issue with just my unit too (I get a flickery screen sometimes and other graphical issues despite having not used the unit much). Also just to note I have had 0 problems I can think of using multiple other MIDI devices and controllers with VCV Rack, but none of them really are sending as much data as NDLR does, which might be contributing to the issue.
I've also included a screenshot of the NDLR template I set up in VCV Rack. From left to right the modules are CV to CC (Key/Mode) > CV to Midi (Degree Change) > 4x Midi to CC (Pad, Drone, Motif 1 & 2) > 3 modules set up to handle transposition from an external keyboard by NDLR (this works fine btw).
![[Image: rTuxzm0.png]](https://i.imgur.com/rTuxzm0.png)
If anyone has any experience using the NDLR with VCV Rack I'd really appreciate some input, or just to talk about some of these issues and what might be causing them.
Thanks
Just realized I made a small mistake with my issue regarding CC changes for Key and Mode. I can send the CC changes simultaneously and they work fine. It's when I try to also Send a Chord type / Degree at the same time as those with Note On/Off data that it takes an extra step before it changes instead of changing simultaneously. I have Pad Quantization off. and I don't think it has to do with any quantization settings in general because I'm not sending any other degree changes for a full 4 bars or more before sending the data to change the degree. It also is inconsistent, for example I have a 32 step pattern with 6 degree changes, sometimes all 5 will send in sync and just the last one is out of sync, sometimes its the 3rd one, sometimes it's none of them. Kinda frustrating to track down what is causing it. I also tried converting the sequencer gate into a trigger and sending the trig to the NDLR instead of the full 1 beat gate, but that didn't seem to make any difference.
I got my NDLR a couple months ago but because of moving my office studio setup I didn't really get much time to experiment with the NDLR until the past week or so.
My setup consists of a bunch of various hardware, rack mounted synths and standalone keyboards, and I use VCV Rack in place of a traditional DAW. Hopefully there might be some people here with VCV experience. I like the modular workflow but am a little hesitant to actually jump into physical modular just because of cost (and addiction potential). I convert CV to Midi and send info out to all my gear using an iConnectivity midi hub, that has always worked without issue. I have used the NDLR a bit just hooked directly to my hardware and also no issues there.
My issues began to start when I wanted to route NDLR through VCV. Although I have some hardware I still use plenty of software sound sources, either VCV modules or VST instruments in VCV using the Host module. I'll start out just by saying that I know that some of these issues might be purely with how the VCV midi to CV modules work, but I'm hoping maybe some people have some solutions or tips.
The first issue I encountered was with Gate information, although I was able to get this somewhat workable. I did my research and I totally understand that NDLR doesn't actually send a "gate" just note on / note off midi messages. In VCV I've been able to somewhat successfully take either the "Gate" or "Retrig" outputs of the "Midi-CV" module in VCV rack and convert those pulses into functional gates that I can then use with my envelope generators. The problem is this tends to be very inconsistent and either I get missed notes or over time the "Gate" output on the Midi-CV module just appears to get stuck open. This happens both with Midi output into my iConnectivity hub, as well as Midi over USB. As far as I can tell even with other Midi-CV modules made by 3rd parties there isn't an output I can grab that is just looking at the Note On/Off signal, note on/off signals all seem to get parsed into v/oct + gate + velocity in VCV midi modules. For reference when testing this setup using Midi over USB I set each of the 4 parts to their own USB midi bus, each with their own separate channel. When using standard 5-pin midi I split 2 channels on A and 2 channels on B, and this leads into the next issue.
The 2nd issue is when using 5-pin din in this set up I get some really weird unwanted signals being sent all over the place. I have triple checked the routing both in the NDLR settings, and on my MIDI interface. Once I start playing more than 2 parts, it seems like garbage data starts getting randomly sent to every Midi channel. For example I can run Motif 1 and 2, but as soon as I start Drone random garbage pitch data starts getting output to Motif 1 and 2. This issue is circumvented by using USB for everything, which so far I can't see any downsides to. I originally switched over to using DIN because I was hoping that maybe I could get more usable gate signals that didn't drop notes, but I had more problems using DIN than just sticking to USB only. After a certain amount of time of getting this garbage message accumulation note data would just stop being sent to the Midi-CV modules no matter how many times I panic'd them out. The only way to fix it was to power off and on the NDLR, and in some cases I had to delete and re-add the Midi-CV modules in VCV rack (this leads me to believe this particular problem is a VCV issue, not the NDLR)
My final issue has to do with sending Midi CC values to the NDLR. In VCV I have a CV-CC module set up so that I can send CC's to CC 73 and 74 so that using VCV sequencers I can change the Key and Scale remotely to create an actual song structure. I also send pitch information (in the form of standard note on / off) to the NDLR to be able to sequence the Chord Degree / Type. The issue is that in VCV when I send the signal all these changes are not properly synchronized, so for example on the first beat of bar 16 of a song, I'd send values to change to E Minor Degree I. What happens a lot of the time is it will change the Key on the downbeat, but the Mode change happens a fraction of a second later (or sometimes not at all) which is very very noticeable in a musical sense. I know Midi (even over USB) has its limitations, but I feel like only sending 2 CC changes on their own dedicated control channel should be happening in a perceptibly simultaneous time. Instead I get a weird staggering effect that is easy to hear and sounds really bad.
I really want to use my NDLR with VCV to help me experiment and create more musical pieces without having to do it all with modules, but the Gate issues and the CC change issues make it almost unusable at times. Like I said I know some of this is pretty dependent on how VCV works (sending gate vs. note on/off), but I'm confused about the CC change issue. I also don't know if this is potentially an issue with just my unit too (I get a flickery screen sometimes and other graphical issues despite having not used the unit much). Also just to note I have had 0 problems I can think of using multiple other MIDI devices and controllers with VCV Rack, but none of them really are sending as much data as NDLR does, which might be contributing to the issue.
I've also included a screenshot of the NDLR template I set up in VCV Rack. From left to right the modules are CV to CC (Key/Mode) > CV to Midi (Degree Change) > 4x Midi to CC (Pad, Drone, Motif 1 & 2) > 3 modules set up to handle transposition from an external keyboard by NDLR (this works fine btw).
If anyone has any experience using the NDLR with VCV Rack I'd really appreciate some input, or just to talk about some of these issues and what might be causing them.
Thanks
Just realized I made a small mistake with my issue regarding CC changes for Key and Mode. I can send the CC changes simultaneously and they work fine. It's when I try to also Send a Chord type / Degree at the same time as those with Note On/Off data that it takes an extra step before it changes instead of changing simultaneously. I have Pad Quantization off. and I don't think it has to do with any quantization settings in general because I'm not sending any other degree changes for a full 4 bars or more before sending the data to change the degree. It also is inconsistent, for example I have a 32 step pattern with 6 degree changes, sometimes all 5 will send in sync and just the last one is out of sync, sometimes its the 3rd one, sometimes it's none of them. Kinda frustrating to track down what is causing it. I also tried converting the sequencer gate into a trigger and sending the trig to the NDLR instead of the full 1 beat gate, but that didn't seem to make any difference.