NDLR KB Trans Question

[steviet]

Hello hello! Loving my NDLR so far, but I have one small question/concern. 

I wanted to use the NDLR to work on my theory, and the keyboard transposition feature seemed like an awesome way to do so. I have a keystep going into MIDI A, and the transposition feature totally works, it will always play in key. 

BUT. It doesn't seem to allow me to play the notes as they would appear on the keyboard all the time.

For instance, C Lydian allows me to play the notes as they would actually be layed out on the keyboard, but C Dorian does not. If I play the D# on my keystep, it comes out as a D. It only will play D# when I press the wrong key one semi tone above D# (E). This is just one example 

Does this make sense, and if it does, am I missing something? Or is this working as intended? 

Really hope I'm missing something or it can be rectified by some kind of setting change, I don't want to learn these scales with the wrong notes! 

Thanks, meanwhile I'll keep on NDL'n!

[Jesse Johannesen]

Hello hello! Loving my NDLR so far, but I have one small question/concern. 

I wanted to use the NDLR to work on my theory, and the keyboard transposition feature seemed like an awesome way to do so. I have a keystep going into MIDI A, and the transposition feature totally works, it will always play in key. 

BUT. It doesn't seem to allow me to play the notes as they would appear on the keyboard all the time.

For instance, C Lydian allows me to play the notes as they would actually be layed out on the keyboard, but C Dorian does not. If I play the D# on my keystep, it comes out as a D. It only will play D# when I press the wrong key one semi tone above D# (E). This is just one example 

Does this make sense, and if it does, am I missing something? Or is this working as intended? 

Really hope I'm missing something or it can be rectified by some kind of setting change, I don't want to learn these scales with the wrong notes! 

Thanks, meanwhile I'll keep on NDL'n!

Hi Steviet,
Thanks for pointing this out, it is quite possible that this is a bug! If you happen to document the modes where you notice errors, and I can then reproduce those errors, I can likely get Steve to whip out a firmware update (although it may take just a little while with him being tied up with the MRCC code).
We really appreciate this kind of post as a lot of these bugs are outlier use cases that no one would have noticed if not for helpful users like you bringing light to them. Thank you.
Jesse

[steviet]

If can help you help me and help everyone, then that's fantastic! Thanks Jesse   I

I went through the key of C. Let me know if you need any more information gathering!


First note is the note I want to work, second note is the one I played on my KeyStep to sound that actual note.

So for example, "D# is E" means that I played "E" on my KeyStep to get "D#" rather than just being able to press "D#".



Major - No issues

Dorian - D# is E, A# is B

Phrygian - C# is D, D# is E, G# is A, A# is B

Lydian - No issues

Mixolydian - A# is B

Minor/Aeolian - D# is E, G# is A, A# is B

Locrian - C# is D, D# is E, F# is G, G# is A, A# is B

Gypsy Minor - D# is E, G# is A

Harmonic Minor - D# is E, G# is A

Minor Pentatonic - F is E, G is F, A# is G

WholeTone- No issues

Tonic2nds - No issues

Tonic3rds - F# is E

Tonic4ths - E is D

Tonic6ths - No issues


Let me know if that makes sense! Thanks again!

[House de Kris]

steviet]
If can help you help me and help everyone, then that's fantastic! Thanks Jesse   I

I went through the key of C. Let me know if you need any more information gathering!


First note is the note I want to work, second note is the one I played on my KeyStep to sound that actual note.

So for example, "D# is E" means that I played "E" on my KeyStep to get "D#" rather than just being able to press "D#".



Major - No issues

Dorian - D# is E, A# is B

Phrygian - C# is D, D# is E, G# is A, A# is B

Lydian - No issues

Mixolydian - A# is B

Minor/Aeolian - D# is E, G# is A, A# is B

Locrian - C# is D, D# is E, F# is G, G# is A, A# is B

Gypsy Minor - D# is E, G# is A

Harmonic Minor - D# is E, G# is A

Minor Pentatonic - F is E, G is F, A# is G

WholeTone- No issues

Tonic2nds - No issues

Tonic3rds - F# is E

Tonic4ths - E is D

Tonic6ths - No issues


Let me know if that makes sense! Thanks again!

Yes, this makes perfect sense. Plus, this is how the SHOULD behave. It makes sense because it appears you aren't fully grasping the beauty of this feature of the NDLR. Please read page 33 of the manual again, the section "Transposing Inbound Notes." You shouldn't be playing any black keys, and all of your complaints are centered on black key operation.

I went to the trouble of making a chart which shows how each key (white and black) get translated for various modes to clearly illustrate what's going on here, but I've found it to be impossible to import it here. So suffice it to say, follow the instructions of page 33 and ONLY PRESS the white keys. Or, in other words, always play in C Major and let NDLR take care of the rest.


  Transpositions.txt (Size: 405 bytes / Downloads: 11)

Oh wait, I think I figured it out. You'll probably have to click the link to see the text file. One octave is shown. The rows connected with dotted lines represent the white keys. I included three modes of C; Major, Dorian, and Lydian (since you said Dorian had an issue and Lydian did not). This chart should explain what's going on. If not, ask for additional clarification.

[steviet]

Yes, this makes perfect sense. Plus, this is how the SHOULD behave. It makes sense because it appears you aren't fully grasping the beauty of this feature of the NDLR. Please read page 33 of the manual again, the section "Transposing Inbound Notes." You shouldn't be playing any black keys, and all of your complaints are centered on black key operation.

I went to the trouble of making a chart which shows how each key (white and black) get translated for various modes to clearly illustrate what's going on here, but I've found it to be impossible to import it here. So suffice it to say, follow the instructions of page 33 and ONLY PRESS the white keys. Or, in other words, always play in C Major and let NDLR take care of the rest.



Oh wait, I think I figured it out. You'll probably have to click the link to see the text file. One octave is shown. The rows connected with dotted lines represent the white keys. I included three modes of C; Major, Dorian, and Lydian (since you said Dorian had an issue and Lydian did not). This chart should explain what's going on. If not, ask for additional clarification.

Thanks for typing that up, maybe I wasn't clear in my first post. 

I realize that the NDLR is transposing the notes, I have read the manual, this was never an issue. The transposition feature works fine, but I want to be able to play the notes as they should be laid out on the keyboard, not just the white keys. I was asking if this is something that can change via setting or if I was just wrong in thinking it could be done this way. 

My hope was that the NDLR will correct ONLY the incorrect notes I play. The manual wasn't entirely clear on whether or not this was the case, it just says:

"It may seem weird but The NDLR will transpose in such a way that even a different Mode will map to the white keys starting on “C”

...which wasn't clear to me. Hence my question.

[House de Kris]

Oops, my bad, sorry. I guess I misinterpreted with the manual saying all keys and modes are mapped to the white keys, and you asking about black keys, that you didn't understand the intent. I get what you're asking now. I suppose it would be easier if the NDLR just didn't transmit anything when a black key was pressed. That would at least force the user to play C Major always.

[steviet]

Oops, my bad, sorry. I guess I misinterpreted with the manual saying all keys and modes are mapped to the white keys, and you asking about black keys, that you didn't understand the intent. I get what you're asking now. I suppose it would be easier if the NDLR just didn't transmit anything when a black key was pressed. That would at least force the user to play C Major always.

No need to apologize at all! I am very thankful that you are trying to help.

I am hoping something like this is possible, I'm trying to brush up on my scales/modes and I wanted the NDLR to help with that.

[Jesse Johannesen]

If can help you help me and help everyone, then that's fantastic! Thanks Jesse   I

I went through the key of C. Let me know if you need any more information gathering!


First note is the note I want to work, second note is the one I played on my KeyStep to sound that actual note.

So for example, "D# is E" means that I played "E" on my KeyStep to get "D#" rather than just being able to press "D#".



Major - No issues

Dorian - D# is E, A# is B

Phrygian - C# is D, D# is E, G# is A, A# is B

Lydian - No issues

Mixolydian - A# is B

Minor/Aeolian - D# is E, G# is A, A# is B

Locrian - C# is D, D# is E, F# is G, G# is A, A# is B

Gypsy Minor - D# is E, G# is A

Harmonic Minor - D# is E, G# is A

Minor Pentatonic - F is E, G is F, A# is G

WholeTone- No issues

Tonic2nds - No issues

Tonic3rds - F# is E

Tonic4ths - E is D

Tonic6ths - No issues


Let me know if that makes sense! Thanks again!

Hey, I had the transpose channel and the NDLR Ctrl channel functions mixed up in my head. The transpose channel will always be "White Keys Only" as you have noticed above. I was confused because the NDLR Ctrl Channel has a setting called "Set Key" which lets you select the Chord degree using the correct notes for the given Scale and Mode which sounds like what you were hoping to do with the transpose channel. Even though the NDLR doesn't support this, it is still possible to play along with whatever notes you like using a Non-transpose/NDLR Ctrl MIDI channel, because the NDLR passes all note data along downstream (according to the Port Thru Mapping chart on pg. 33 of the manual). While this will not correct any off notes it at least will allow you the chance to practice along with the correct fingering. I will put in a feature request to see if it might make sense to have the Transpose channel follow the NDLR Ctrl channel in this regard, so if you were to choose that setup for the Ctrl channel, the Transpose would do that as well. Seems like that would make sense.
Thanks again for pointing this out,
Jesse

[kastenbalg]

Just to chime in here, I wish there was a way to allow chromatic (black key) notes to be transposed. In other words, keep the NDLR key, but turn the NDLR scale/mode off. Could be as simple as a setting making the transpose channel 'scale' or 'chromatic.'

Chromatic transposition would make C on the keyboard the root of whatever key was selected on the NDLR. Incoming notes would transpose intervallicly only.

Say the NDLR key was Ab. Incoming notes would be transposed -4 semitones (or +8 - how to pick is a digression).

This would not prevent certain 'mistakes,' but frees up musical expression. Plenty of melodies use notes outside the scale. The way transposition works now is described perfectly in the manual, but is not musically intuitive. I find it useless, because I know the exact note I want to play in relation to the root, regardless of the scale. Or at least willing to chance it. The machine better not contradict me!

The mistake that still gets prevented is playing notes in the wrong place relatively in the scale. I can take the NDLR to any key and still play as if the root was C. Also this helps when using small keyboards, the same playing keys are always available.

I had a previous post asking to do transposition by interval on multiple channels, called it a 'transposition matrix' I think. That may have been overkill. A midi event processor could also do this, but now I'm outside the NDLR. The NDLR already does so much to manage key and scale that I keep wanting more.

[Jesse Johannesen]

Just to chime in here, I wish there was a way to allow chromatic (black key) notes to be transposed. In other words, keep the NDLR key, but turn the NDLR scale/mode off. Could be as simple as a setting making the transpose channel 'scale' or 'chromatic.'

Chromatic transposition would make C on the keyboard the root of whatever key was selected on the NDLR. Incoming notes would transpose intervallicly only.

Say the NDLR key was Ab. Incoming notes would be transposed -4 semitones (or +8 - how to pick is a digression).

This would not prevent certain 'mistakes,' but frees up musical expression. Plenty of melodies use notes outside the scale. The way transposition works now is described perfectly in the manual, but is not musically intuitive. I find it useless, because I know the exact note I want to play in relation to the root, regardless of the scale. Or at least willing to chance it. The machine better not contradict me!

The mistake that still gets prevented is playing notes in the wrong place relatively in the scale. I can take the NDLR to any key and still play as if the root was C. Also this helps when using small keyboards, the same playing keys are always available.

I had a previous post asking to do transposition by interval on multiple channels, called it a 'transposition matrix' I think. That may have been overkill. A midi event processor could also do this, but now I'm outside the NDLR. The NDLR already does so much to manage key and scale that I keep wanting more.

I like this suggestion a lot. I know this isn't something that will be prioritized at the moment, but I could see this being a good addition if there is a way to do it with the current hardware memory/storage limitations. I especially see this being beneficial for someone with a small midi controller, but agree with you on all counts. I'll add it to the feature request list and we'll see how it goes.

Jesse